Somehow, Ray Romeo finds a way to keep Wagglepop open

On April 27, 2009, in E-commerce, by David

If this doesn’t convince Wagglepop sellers that they’re being had, I don’t know what will.

Amidst a mutiny by sellers, and seemingly at no other options by “management”, Ray Romeo (as Andrew Pittino) somehow, SOMEHOW, found a way to not DOUBLE sellers’ monthly fees for having a store at Wagglepop.

Days of last minute “management meetings” regarding the unfortunate necessity of doubling these fees and Ray’s, I mean Andrew’s, stragegic dynamic of marketing skills, have resulted in a “win win” for Wagglepop and it’s sellers.

No longer will Ray be forced to edit the monthly fee field in Rscript from 29.95 to 59.95. He will simply have to change it to 39.95, a 10 dollar increase. Phew. I was thinking Ray would never be able to figure that out. In addition, sellers with mutliple stores (why would they want to even have one, nobody can guess), will have to pay some discounted price for them, rather than have them for free, as part of their 59.95 monthly plan.

I think Ray, I mean Andrew, was just trying to prevent any abuse from sellers that would all share one WP account, and each have different stores, all splitting the $59.95 monthly fee, but I digress. Somehow… SOMEHOW, Ray found a way, although he had solemly admitted that there really was NO OTHER WAY.

Anyway, although “Andrew” is ALREADY an owner of Wagglepop (with a nom de plume of  Ray Romeo), Andrew also makes an announcement that he is now also part owner of Wagglepop! Maybe he’ll eventually announce that he’s also changed his name from Andrew Pittino to Ray Romeo, so that he can say he never actually LIED to his sellers, under Wagglepop’s “revolutionary” “trust based system”.

And by the way, the last forum thread about the fees jumping to $59.95 have been replaced with the new thread and the 39.95 price. Although no mention of this price increase, which happens in less than a week, is posted on the announcements page, last updated December 2008.

Anyway, the announcement is after the jump, both the 39.95 announcement (new) and the 59.95 announcement (old), including some of the wailing and gnashing of teeth by sellers.

More on Ray and Wagglepop:
http://community.tuliptools.com/index.php/topic,3775.msg74318.html#msg74318
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=wagglepop+site%3Asneakydave.com&fp=RgodfiivdiU

NEW Annoucement posted 4/27/2009:
————————–
SmartSell Enterprise Merchants – *Updated* – SmartSell Enterprise now $39.95 with no FVF

Date Posted: Mon 04/27/09 12:19 am
Posts: 368
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007

Hello Wagglepop Members,

Well, we found a way.

As of May billing, SmartSell Enterprise will remain intact and include a Wagglepop Store with BusinessBuilder, include unlimited listings, and no final value fees.

SmartSell Enterprise will be billed at $39.95 per monthly subscription, a $10.00 increase, and not the more radical level previously announced and now reworked.

I am not sure the details matter on “how” we achieved this, but suffice it to say as of this Tuesday morning I am not only part of the management team, but part owner of Wagglepop LLC as well.

Existing SSE accounts will automatically post at $39.95, and additional new Stores under the free trial will remain free until the trial end. At that time, additional SSE accounts (Stores) will be billed at a generous discount – the exact discount as yet undetermined.

Anyone wishing to reopen their SSE account under this new framework should contact Customer Care and Chris can process that on Monday.

I would like to thank membership for the invaluable input and dialogue from the past two days – it was and is your passion and support of Wagglepop that lead directly to my monetary investment in Wagglepop.

I believe in Wagglepop and I will be making some more aggressive changes from my new standing as a part owner that I think can grow the site in the ways that everyone can enjoy and benefit from.

Best of luck to all of us.

Andrew P.
WP

Old announcement, posted 4/23/2009
————–
SmartSell Enterprise Merchants – Notice – WP SmartSell Price Increase Effective May Billing

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Thu 04/23/09 6:40 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007

Hello Wagglepop Members,

After a very difficult meeting with ownership earlier today I am bound to relay the following dire circumstances that force us to drastically increase the cost of participation if Wagglepop is to continue operation.
Paid participation is way down – all the way to 45 SmartSell subscribers in good-standing.
As a result, as of May 1, 2009 we will no longer have any financial support from ownership to make up the difference in our operating loss each month. Zero, zip, nada. No more money except that which we generate.
It was a difficult decision for ownership to make, though I do understand the reasons behind it – Wagglepop is a terrificly effective site for focused individuals to set up shop and make money, but for those looking for another eBay it is simply viewed even by us as non-competitive. Not for lack of features or performance, but simply out of lack of participation in numbers required to support that along with so many having difficulty operating in a trust-based environment – particularly in regards to payment of seller account balances.
My goal now is to be able to continue operation of Wagglepop for those loyal members who wish to continue to be a part of it.
The ultimate decision was mine whether or not to close Wagglepop or restructure to be able to continue operation, and as such the following by way of full disclosure must guide me:
Average Monthly Operating Expenses
Fixed
1. Technical Support Contract = $975.00/month (15 hours)
2. Server Costs = $379.00/month
3. Customer Care Labor Costs = $576.00/month (12 hours week)
Non-Fixed
4. Technical Support Overages = $150.00/month average (2 hours)
5. Supplies & Miscellaneous = $40.00/month average
——————————
Average Total Monthly Operating Expenses = $2120.00
April 2009 Operating Breakdown
Total Revenues = $1422.35
Total Expenses = $2166.31
—————————————-
Operating LOSS = $743.96
As noted above, we will not be able to continue operation unless restructured immediately so that revenues meet expenses in totality. Customer Care hours have already been cut from 24 to 12 weekly in the last several months and the remaining expenses are either fixed or anticipated.
To continue, we must do the following:
Effective May 1st SmartSell Enterprise will (as it must) effectively double to $59.95 per month. Based on further attrition, if we can maintain 35 paid SmartSell subscriptions at that subscription cost, we can continue operation. Mathematically, revenues should meet expenses while still offering a tremendous value for subscribers.
This is something we simply must do.
Barring the ability to do that, we will have no choice except to close Wagglepop, sell off the programming, the domain name and licenses, and farm out the delinquent accounts to collection agencies to the highest bidder.
Please note that should we be able to continue by retaining and supporting around 35 loyal members, we will likely make unlimited Stores a permanent part of SSE.
Ultimately, sellers will be able to have unlimited Stores, unlimited listings, and no final value fees all for about 2 bucks a day. A great opportunity for those who can and would utilize it.
We’ll be making the subscription cost changes for May billing and emailing all sellers over the next few days to notify them of the change and the needs behind it.
Yes, there are certainly smaller similar sites that do not incur the monthly expenses we do such as Customer Care, and ongoing need for a Tech Support Contract or hosting on a dedicated server. They live with basic code and features that are either not as complex or not as monitored, self-operate, and share server space. That is simply not what Wagglepop is, and for those that use us the difference between our performance and sites such as those is crystal clear.
Wagglepop has become and will further become a small “private” site where a small group of highly observant and motivated sellers can prosper, and buyers can find great deals.
It’s clear – we’ll never become the big or profitable enterprise we envisioned when first conceived and introduced, but in shooting for those stars we have simply built a good site that supports a handful of sellers to profitablity in a friendly community where shoppers can find a real bargain and great customer service.
That’s something we can live with. We are hoping that about 35 of our wonderful sellers and thousands of buyers feel the same way about that and support the continuation of your and our Wagglepop.
Andrew P.
WP

SHADOWONE
Date Posted: Thu 04/23/09 8:17 am
Posts: 214
Member Since: 28 Jul 2006

Thanks for keeping us in the loop Andrew
_________________
Steve
Photobucket

eracemantoo
Date Posted: Thu 04/23/09 9:48 am
Posts: 1015
Member Since: 13 Aug 2006
Andrew,
Does this mean with my four stores, I’ll be paying $240.00?
I’m sorry that if this is so, I may be forced to close all of my stores.
_________________
Rick
Laughter is an instant vacation.

cuteandfun
Date Posted: Thu 04/23/09 10:14 am
Posts: 616
Member Since: 04 Feb 2008
Thanks Andrew for keeping us up to date.
Can you explain better how this will affect how much we will be paying. I also have four stores ($240.00) , two were before the last changes, however even $120.00 is more than I can manage.
Thanks again.
_________________
Thanks,
Denise

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Thu 04/23/09 10:52 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
WP Members,
Existing subscriptions of $29.95 not currently under any free trial promotion will be billed starting the May billing period at $59.95.
At some point in the coming weeks, all subscriptions under a single (as verified) seller will be billed singularly – just one $59.95 payment.
For instance, a seller may have a single “original” SSE subscription for $59.95, and subsequently opens (for example) 3 additional accounts and Stores. Provided those additional accounts pass verification, the additional accounts and Stores will be credited in full each month.
I am unable to fix a timeline before we can assess the May “litmus test” for ongoing participation.
AP

GotToHaveIt
Date Posted: Thu 04/23/09 11:35 am
Posts: 4
Member Since: 25 Jan 2009
Andrew,
I might be alittle dense, but, those three stores that you do open under the promotional one year period, would still be $59.95 each after the promotional period for each store ends, is that correct?
Rick
_________________
Rick
Laughter is an instant vacation.

cuteandfun
Date Posted: Thu 04/23/09 12:29 pm
Posts: 616
Member Since: 04 Feb 2008
Sorry Andrew but I am not sure I understand.
Does that mean that I will be paying almost $120.00 or $59.95?
_________________
Thanks,
Denise

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Thu 04/23/09 8:13 pm
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
GotToHaveIt,
Your 4 Stores (and any additional Stores your may open) will be billed under a single $59.95 subscription.
cuteandfun,
Your 2 Stores (and any additional Stores your may open) will also be billed under a single $59.95 subscription.
Basically, for one $59.95 payment monthly sellers can open a single Store or multiple Stores with unlimited listings and no final value fees.
Paramount however is that we can retain enough participation as noted in my initial post to be able to continue operation.
AP

Angelsong777
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 1:46 am
Posts: 2026
Member Since: 24 Jul 2006
I am mostly speechless except to say that I am still ‘in’ at $59.95/month.
_________________
~Alison
*Normal* is just a setting on the dryer.

SHADOWONE
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 4:12 am
Posts: 214
Member Since: 28 Jul 2006
So, do I understand this right.
I have 1 store so it will cost me $59.95.
Seller X has 4 stores and it will cost him/her $59.95?
But I can add as many stores as I want and still pay the $59.95 total once a month.
Is that correct?
_________________
Steve
Photobucket

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 5:30 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
SHADOWONE,
That is correct. However, we do need to be able to sustain about 35 individual or “unique” sellers (regardless of single or multiple accounts/Stores) in order to be able to continue to operate.
Our situation is not unique given the current economic climate, but as our operation is less liquid than most we do have ways to continue operation – as noted in my initial post.
We are all very hopeful that Wagglepop means to membership as much as it means to us here and that we can and will continue within the necessary restructure.
AP

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 5:34 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
Angelsong777,
I am having a similar reaction having never pictured good faith participation to plumet as it has. I suppose the reasons for that do not really matter at this time of crisis.
Ownership is clear on this matter, and rightfully so – operation can continue provided we restructure to match expenses, period.
This is the only way I can personally think of to “save” Wagglepop – a site well worth saving and still a tremendous value and asset to all online sellers and shoppers.
AP

bobjohnston
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 5:40 am
Posts: 94
Member Since: 12 Dec 2007
Andrew
What can I do to help Wagglepop thru this crisis! I do not have a store but maybe I can help with customer service or something?
_________________
Courage is rarely reckless or foolish . . . courage usually involves a highly realistic estimate of the odds that must be faced. -Margaret Truman.
Bob Johnston

Angelsong777
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 6:08 am
Posts: 2026
Member Since: 24 Jul 2006
“I suppose the reasons for that do not really matter at this time of crisis.”
To a certain extent, those reasons do matter at this time. I have come to the conclusion that the best fee structure to produce solid growth in an ‘alternative site’ such as Wagglepop is to have no (or extremely low if over a certain number of listings) up front cost, and charge for FVF and optional upgrades only. This may be the only way to attract sellers in meaningful enough numbers to sustain a site. At $59.95/month, and even at $29.95/month, we can NOT attract new sellers. This has us boxed into an impossible corner now. As stated, I will pay $59.95/month to help keep Wagglepop open, but how many others will? Very few, and that number will continue to drop as time goes on, making maintaining the site impossible. Wagglepop must have the support of more sellers to make a turnaround, and that can not happen at a cost of $59.95/month.
(Ok, so I became just slightly less speechless.)
_________________
~Alison
*Normal* is just a setting on the dryer.

bobjohnston
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 6:25 am
Posts: 94
Member Since: 12 Dec 2007
Anglesong
I agree fully when feee tructure was at 9.95 even with fvf attached did not upset me. I would still be selling ere if that was the case.
_________________
Courage is rarely reckless or foolish . . . courage usually involves a highly realistic estimate of the odds that must be faced. -Margaret Truman.
Bob Johnston

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 6:34 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
Angelsong777,
To a great degree I actually agree with much of what you have stated. You’re probably right.
However, we have tried near every incarnation and combination we could think of in order to support the growth you refer to. We did five-cent listings, ten-dollar Stores, low FVFs, no FVFs etc…
You name the dynamic, and we had it “in play” at some point over the last three years. None worked.
Wagglepop was created to give online buyers and sellers an opportunity to support their “own” site. It was never intended nor could it be supported autonomously, or independent of that membership support.
We paid for some very powerful new code and ‘cleaned up’ programming, heavy duty servers, and top-notch support systems. We wanted Wagglepop to be the absolute high standard for all independent non-eBay auction type sites. We feel we achieved that.
Perhaps we could have used stock code and shared servers and done the minimum in terms of support. It certainly would have saved ownership a tremendous amount of money and expense. But that is not what the route we picked – we wanted to offer something extraordinary that could compete with eBay in terms of user experience, and once grounded in participation, have the whole site redesigned from scratch.
The plans for Wagglepop were quite big – given one necessary factor – participation.
It may be simply that we misjudged the need for Wagglepop as originally conceived. Maybe people wanted a better eBay, and not a better auction site.
Maybe some of the smaller sites have it right: $500 software, $25 shared space, home-brewed customer service. That is something we were never going to do or be – we believed potential membership deserved more than that as a best effort.
We thought Buy More Now and Red Carpet would revolutionize the auction industry. In reality, they are rarely used and never mentioned on independent so-called “auction news” sites, likely due to fear of risking their eBay affiliate revenues.
“Business” to me is pretty simple – you take a product and bring it to market. All the testing in the world will never tell you how that product – such as Wagglepop – will be ultimately judged or accepted. Some of the greatest successes had little imagination or investment or support, while some of the most highly funded and planned enterprises fail each day.
In the end, your product is either needed or it is not, and it appears that the need for an eBay competitor does not truly exist. At least not beyond the discussion boards and forums. Not because Wagglepop as conceived failed, but because all of the competitors are failing, or, to more sharply illustrate the point, are not being introduced.
For me, Wagglepop will always be a pretty “cool” place and I am crestfallen that we need to take such drastic actions at this time. It deserved better, and we know that eBay users would have loved using the site and seeing how dedicated we were to it’s redesign and growth.
It really would have been something to see. For now though, I’m hoping to simply save it for what it is – a nice little site to buy and sell.
AP

Angelsong777
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 7:11 am
Posts: 2026
Member Since: 24 Jul 2006
“You name the dynamic, and we had it “in play” at some point over the last three years. None worked.”
Except for the “fees without up front cost” dynamic. In hindsight, that is probably the one that was needed from the beginning in 2006 to contribute to the membership support that was needed for long term growth and strength.
That is probably also the only option now to ‘start over’ in a way that will allow Wagglepop to gain the traction needed to survive (and ultimately thrive, because it DOES have a lot of untapped potential).
_________________
~Alison
*Normal* is just a setting on the dryer.

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 7:36 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
Angelsong777.
There seem to be a lot of smaller sites that have monthy operating costs of about $25 that do offer no upfront costs and may be a good alternative for sellers who prefer that dynamic and site.
However, It takes about $2,000 a month to run Wagglepop at an almost bare minimum. Any good programmer or database designer should agree that a site with the performance and features of Wagglepop (and dimension) require constant monitored maintenance and require state of the art server support – and that costs money.
There are lots of smaller sites that run on shared space without any support that simply disappear for days at a time, or forever, or perform poorly as a standard. Several of the sites we visited in ongoing research flat our failed to load in our browsers, timed out, were unsecured, or generated paging errors.
We did, I feel, have very near the “no upfront costs” dynamic when we had SmartSell Pro at $9.95 per month with FVFs and unlimited free listings.
Realistically, if ten bucks a month isn’t cheap enough to get people involved, what is?
AP

Momof1
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 7:43 am
Posts: 279
Member Since: 31 Jan 2008
nothing to say saw this a few hours ago. Am beyond words and have nothing but hysterics and devastated to tears that won’t stop (literally) not to mention my ongoing nonstop panic attack I am in.
Can’t even begin to think what I am going to do or where to begin.
I was in the process of closing my last 9 items out of the othEr place.
1800 items and descriptions probably down the tubes.
As per the mentions above FVF restarted would of been able to be handled.
Not to mention feeling dubbed right now. I never asked for the high level it was upgraded for “free” for us.
Appreciate that you made the post to inform us and not just finding out we didn’t exist anymore. Just 2 weeks to reestablish for those with 1,000s of listing leaves us well with nothing certainly no time to relocate for those that need to now.
Sorry if I am repeating a question but this is overwhelming me right now so The stores that opened with the free promotion for a year thing, are those still remaining free until it expires?
_________________

bobjohnston
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 7:45 am
Posts: 94
Member Since: 12 Dec 2007
Anglesong and Andrew
This open and no censorship should have been taking place from the begining and maybe we would have thousands of sellers. Sellers have been asking ability for instant pay for years without the invoice system. If your paying 900 dolars a month for technical support you should have it. Intagrating google checkout into the invoices system or instant pay it should be there. I am sure if google was contacted they would help intagrate it because it would mean more revenue for them. These open disscusions are important to Wagglepop or any other site to survive. Excuse the spelling.
_________________
Courage is rarely reckless or foolish . . . courage usually involves a highly realistic estimate of the odds that must be faced. -Margaret Truman.
Bob Johnston

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 7:51 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
Momof1,
Please understand that it was made very clear to me by ownership that if I wanted Wagglepop to continue, I needed to figure out the best way for partcipation to support that. This is our only possible solution that I can see at this time.
The free trial promotion is in place and due for review at some point, but a moot point unless we can retain enough upgraded accounts to keep the site in operation.
bobjohnston,
I am quite confident we have never supported “censorship” on this board but we have followed the Board Participation Policy as it regards posting. Not everyone likes rules, but we have them and we enforce them.
Wagglepop Checkout and Google Checkout integration was the least of what we had planned – in many ways we would have had more features than eBay – if only we had hit the very miminum of good-faith participatory numbers.
AP

Angelsong777
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 7:53 am
Posts: 2026
Member Since: 24 Jul 2006
“We did, I feel, have very near the “no upfront costs” dynamic when we had SmartSell Pro at $9.95 per month with FVFs and unlimited free listings.”
While I completely agree with that personally, I have learned that a very large percentage of online sellers are far more willing to use a site that is free up front with slightly higher FVFs rather than one that is $9.95 per month with lower FVFs. And ultimately, those higher FVFs should bring the site more revenue than the $9.95 per month plus lower FVFs. Especially considering the difference in the potential number of sellers.
“Realistically, if ten bucks a month isn’t cheap enough to get people involved, what is?”
Probably zero up front… or, I’ve heard some people say $5. would be ok ($60. up front for one year plus FVFs?). But it’s the Free up front that grabs the interest of most online sellers.
_________________
~Alison
*Normal* is just a setting on the dryer.

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 7:59 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
Angelsong777,
While I do firmly agree with your larger point, I must stand on my assertion that ten dollars a month for SmartSell Pro with BusinessBuilder and FVFs was as near to free as was realistically possible.
The whole idea of “free” is counterintuitive to good business. The greatest returns come from solid investments, and I cannot and will not ever understand how we could not get 2,000 or 3,000 sellers to realize what we would have accomplished if only for ten bucks each a month.
The news stories and publicity from that alone would have grown us tenfold, lead to the redesign, and easily attracted corporate investment and sponsoring.
Ten bucks.
AP

Momof1
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 8:06 am
Posts: 279
Member Since: 31 Jan 2008
“Please understand that it was made very clear to me by ownership that if I wanted Wagglepop to continue, I needed to figure out the best way for partcipation to support that. This is our only possible solution that I can see at this time.”
I do understand that fully honestly I do. I did thank you for informing us. Honestly though I was having enough sales to cover the 29.95 with a few dollars over a month. Others here were not or are not that lucky. So I do have to say or rather ask you, do you honestly believe realistically that you will have enough stay. I have had sales and right at this time without able to thing straight don’t think I can.
I am not trying to be negative, only realistic to this. Tough times are here for everyone with the economy how it is. I know it is not a new situation for you at your end, it has been ongoing and it is appreciated that you have done what you can at this point. So I am not pushing the economy as an excuse for you or saying it would pick up for you and your end. I am just pointing it out from our end.
Question for you that I have if I do stay or even if I don’t for those that do.
When will you know that you met the 35 members to stay open?
Those that are able cause they are elsewhere too unlike me will slowly leave.
Will there notice that it can’t be met and has no choice but to close? If yes, how much notice will be given to us so those still here can copy and paste their descriptions to move on?
_________________

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 9:36 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
Momof1,
Yes, I do believe we will have the participation necessary to continue and have every confidence and expectation that we will be able to share that news at the end of May processing, typically the last week of the month in May.
For those that do stay, we will be redesigning some of the interfaces and displays to bring the site and site experience further into focus as one of a small group of sellers with much to offer rather than a widespread “eBay style” experience.
In some ways I think if we can re-envision the site as a premium brand with specific categories that are filled with items and products, we may even be able to attract additional participation – not from eBay but from those that now use or would use standalone solution, such as Presto Stores, for example.
Wagglepop has a lot of traffic each month, and that traffic combined with unique and useful features within a friendly supportive community may be quite appealing for those online merchants looking for something more than a “ground up” standalone site.
Call me an optimist, but I think in every challenge there lies an opportunity.
AP

SHADOWONE
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 10:06 am
Posts: 214
Member Since: 28 Jul 2006
Andrew,
My impression of what you are saying is if you can’t be the Cadillac on the road then you don’t want to go to town at all.
I think we would all rather ride in a ford than end up walking.
my suggestion (which is probably too simple) would be to cut operating expenses to the bone, ask several of your more knowledgeable store owners to volunteer to take turns monitoring a customer service help center (you know they will). Charge $20.00 a month per store + a fvf no free stores. use advertising for additional income like every other alternative site does. At $20.00 a store you are going to keep most everyone you have so that is $1200.00 of your current $2000.00 needed.
In my opinion WP was never going to be Ebay. Sellers are leaving Ebay by the droves because of the cost of doing business so there is noway they are going to come here and pay more for a store it’s plain and simple.
Sharpen your pencil and keep your business.
I have enjoyed my store here on Wagglepop (still love the name) and would love to be able to afford to enjoy it for years to come.
Regards
Steve
_________________
Steve
Photobucket

bobjohnston
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 10:35 am
Posts: 94
Member Since: 12 Dec 2007
Steve great way of saying it. Rent Server Space for less then $50.00 a month and get 2 gigbytes of diskspace and 50 gigbytes of band width and membership wouldn’t notice the differnce
_________________
Courage is rarely reckless or foolish . . . courage usually involves a highly realistic estimate of the odds that must be faced. -Margaret Truman.
Bob Johnston

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 10:56 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
SHADOWONE & bobjohnston,
Expenses as outlined are as absolutely minimized as possible.
Wagglepop absolutely would not even run in a shared server environment. In fact, during our first 18 months of operation we had eight dedicated servers tied together in order to handle the traffic and process code and server requests. By way of comparison, the high for operating expenses in a single month (September 2006) was just over $5,200.
Based on the code we run shared space is not an option, and for any site serious about performance and with decent traffic in an SQL environment a dedicated server is the only solution.
It is difficult to relate fully exactly how complex the code is that presents Wagglepop and how closely monitored it is. There is simply no feasible way to “unring the bell” at this point in terms of what creates Wagglepop.
AP

SHADOWONE
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 11:25 am
Posts: 214
Member Since: 28 Jul 2006
Andrew,
I appreciate your quick and honest response, I do understand your situation from a business standpoint and hope with all sincerity that WP survives this storm. In the same sense at $59.95 a month and few sales I hope you understand using the same business sense why people will have to move to a site with less overhead.
I am a founding member and can afford to stay a while longer so I am hoping for the best.
Regards
Steve
_________________
Steve
Photobucket

Remotes4Less
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 5:29 pm
Posts: 1843
Member Since: 22 Jul 2006
Hi all,
Lots of good dialogue and suggestions here.
Please excuse my simplistic input (it’s been a terribly long day and it’s 1 am here) but I will make my offer anyway in the hopes of getting Andrew’s feedback…….
Andrew,
Lets assume for sake of argument that you are unwilling to consider any other possible fee structure such as, but not limited to, an annual upfront store fee of a reasonable amount (such as $240 plus FVFs)
Based on the numbers that are in your original post and the information you have provided in subsequent posts, it sounds like WP’s monthly operating expenses for technical support, server costs, technical support overages and supplies and misc are not negotiable.
So let’s look at customer care labor cost expenses.
If I would be willing to provide all customer care free of charge based on 12 hours per week (48 hours per month) that would save $576.00 per month of fixed operating expenses.
Based on your numbers for April 2009 Operating Loss of approx.$744, if you subtract $576, that would reduce the operating loss to $168.
Now if we had only 35 paying members remaining (although I am sure there would be more), then it would only be necessary to increase the monthly store fee by only $5 for each member approximately.
If you would be willing to trust me with that responsibility, I could assume that role starting as early as this Monday, April 27, 2009.
Granted, I do realize there would be an occasional inquiry/problem that I would have to defer to you or Chris as I would not have the advantage of having an administrative console, but I do think I am capable of answering most questions/concerns etc.
I am not trying to rob Chris of her job or anything like that but with no flexibility in cutting expenses in any other areas, I see it as the only viable area to cut operating expenses yet still be able to provide customer care support.
Would this be something you would consider?
Marie
Remotes4Less
_________________
Remotes4Less

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 8:19 pm
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
Remotes4Less,
I certainly do appreciate what I see as an extremely generous offer, but I see no way (knowing the day-to-day operations as I do) to make Customer Care a subcontracted facet.
“Customer Care” responsibilities extend rather far beyond just email processing of membership or potential membership questions and concerns and does require full access to the administrative backend.
In addition to email inquiries, duties include daily processing of accounts (along with monthly processing of account delinquencies), execution of closing of listings in violation, email and phone updates, payments approval, security referrals, site monitoring and tech referrals, and updating of the Google Products feed among other similar responsibilities.
We have Chris doing all of that working under just 1-2 hours per day (well, more like getting paid 1-2 hours per day while working twice that I suspect), which I find remarkable and have told her many times that I do not know how she does it – but I am glad she does.
I do not wish to sound or seem inflexible – it is just that Customer Care is an integral part of operating Wagglepop, and even given the skeletal remains of a working schedule we allow Chris to have – it must by necessity remain an internal function.
The structure I have outlined provides the minimum (but necessary) tech support, server support, and customer support required to operate Wagglepop.
The “bottom line” regarding the cost of partcipation in the month upcoming and beyond is that we must deal with the reality that if we, as a community, do not generate the revenues required to run Wagglepop, we will be unable to continue operation. This point was made crystal clear to me in my meeting with ownership.
In outlining the monthly expenses, please note that I did not include the outstanding debt or investment we carry from the creation and advertising of Wagglepop – about $75,000 (or perhaps more) in investment and shortfall operating capital “to date” and about $38,000 in debt from the four month banner ad campaign. These are simply incurred costs that ownership must deal with ongoing and not fairly considered a part of monthly operations.
I do understand fully and agree with the need for ownership to draw the line in terms of support at this time – and I have thanked them for the opportunity to try to continue Wagglepop.
You have my sincere thanks for what is clearly a heartfelt offer to help.
AP

Tam2Win1
Date Posted: Fri 04/24/09 9:56 pm
Posts: 2501
Member Since: 03 Aug 2006
I would rather ride in a ford than walk too!
I hate to be the pessimist here, but I’m afraid this price increase is only going to pull Wagglepop further down the pile of online sites and ultimately into closure mode. I really don’t want to see that happen, but I’ve been looking at the big picture outside of WP for quite some time now.
Even if WP’s $60 is cheaper than Ebay stores, there are way too many online sites out there that are lower in cost and therefore will lure the sellers in who are trying to leave Ebay, or even those who just want a quiet place to sell. All the bells and whistles of Wagglepop aren’t going to be as attractive as the lower seller fees that other sites offer. And if Wagglepop can’t turn off those bells and whistles and strip itself down to the bare minimum that sellers can actually afford, then we are all left with nowhere to go but out.
Another thing… I just think that it is an unfair price. I mean yes, a person who has 3 or 4 stores really benifits, but when someone (most people actually) can only operate one store, they are still paying this whopping fee for a store that may not even generate any sales for the first 4 months of operation… simply because the store has to be built up with html and listings before it is ready to go. And even then… the sellers have to bust b*tts to advertise their stores like crazy. There may be high levels of traffic on WP, but I really fail to see any large amounts of sales as a result of that traffic. Maybe all the traffic is from click to advertise sites, where they are just clicking in to gain points for their own advertising agendas, I just don’t know.
As a Founding Member and one of the sellers who have established their stores quite well here, even I am finding it hard to come up with $60 in WP sales between my two stores. I have even closed my Rubber Ducky store a couple of times, and I have seriously been considering doing this again due to the lack of sales. And I am advertising my WP stores more than any of my other online stores so I know it is not for lack of trying.
I have always been optimistic of Wagglepop and I really wish that I could continue to be that way. But I also know in my heart that this newest price increase is going to hurt more than help this site.
As for the community boards … I feel that there really hasn’t been an “active” community boards for quite some time. No one wants to talk here anymore. Even THIS message hasn’t lured much more than the usual sellers to post here. So I guess these boards don’t really need to be managed as much, therefore Chris can actually handle them more efficiently. Sad when you think about it.
I have said in the past that I would stay on at WP until they kick me out. Well… I have to honestly say that I feel backed into a corner instead. Time will tell, if I can wiggle myself through this one. :)
_________________
Tamera
Bernings Bargains Sale: April 12-25, 2009
30% off all items in the Home & Garden department.
Red Carpet Discount: Buy any 3 items and start getting 15% off every item in the store,
every time you shop at Rubber Ducky Deals on Wagglepop!

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Sat 04/25/09 12:02 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
Tam2Win1,
I understand your feelings completely. I wish there were some other way – and you are correct, it may not be enough to save Wagglepop.
It was my decision to offer this chance to restructure for those that wish to continue. Until I calculated what it would take in terms of cutting expenses and matching sustainable revenues, and received permission to try it, we were closing the doors on Wagglepop.
I am still hopeful that we will not have to do that, but I am sure as a collective membership recognizes that Wagglepop was never designed for 30-40 sellers in total and fabricating a structure to support such an odd and unfortunate circumstance becomes exactly that – odd and unfortunate.
There are indeed many, many small “mom and pop” type auction sites that may work for sellers, but Wagglepop is and always has been something different, and special. I hope it survives for those that wish it to survive – the idea of scuttling it and selling off the scrap would be a sad and undeserved end to a great effort by ownership, management, and membership.
AP

Angelsong777
Date Posted: Sat 04/25/09 12:30 am
Posts: 2026
Member Since: 24 Jul 2006
“Wagglepop was never designed for 30-40 sellers in total and fabricating a structure to support such an odd and unfortunate circumstance becomes exactly that – odd and unfortunate.”
Exactly right. The point I’m trying to make is that it CAN’T work to continue raising the cost of participation to what is required to cover operating expenses. The problem is that doing so now (and up to now) has forced us into the position where the site can NOT attract or keep the number of sellers that are needed to support operating the site. Something clearly has to ‘give’. It’s not very doable for expenses to ‘give’, so what has to ‘give’ is that the site has to become attractive to a larger number of sellers. Fee structure is perhaps the most important factor here, and I strongly feel that it needs to shift drastically in the other direction to save the site.
On another note, if the site must be sold, I really hope that it can be sold as an intact, operating site instead of closing it and selling off the ‘parts’.
@Marie ~ That was an extremely generous and selfless offer.
I do hope that through ongoing discussion, a workable solution can be found.
_________________
~Alison
*Normal* is just a setting on the dryer.

bobjohnston
Date Posted: Sat 04/25/09 1:02 am
Posts: 94
Member Since: 12 Dec 2007
I have to say sorry for some of my statements on this matter because I hate to see Wagglepop fail. I must admit when I was here I didn’t use smart sell to my advantage. I really got upset on the price increase. In truth I could afford to pay it. I’m 72 years old. I emailed customer care the other day that I was willing to return to Wagglepop. I really don’t need the revenue because of my retirement. I concider online selling more of a hobby the a job. I can feel the pain many of you who need that reveue and would hate to see this site go down Andrew I’m not willing to commit my self to a full year for who knows I may not live or have health good enough to last that long. But like my email says if I could be reinstated for the $29.95 fee without the $10.00 reinstated fee I will come back and open a store. I have not heard from customer service at all. I want to say I.m sorry again if I offended anyone. And Ray thank you for your attempt to create Wagglepop and I certanly understand your fustrations. I have never got into the postings about Ray a couple of years ago and the name calling that came form that and I could understand his fustrations with that and it really hurt Wagglepop at that time. We had over 600 sellers at the time and was never recovered from those unfortunet happings. Remember Ray provided the tools but the sellers created it with the great attudes and great customer service. My support will always be with Wagglepop and if it doen’t survive I will always remember Wagglepop in both my heart and memories.
_________________
Courage is rarely reckless or foolish . . . courage usually involves a highly realistic estimate of the odds that must be faced. -Margaret Truman.
Bob Johnston

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Sat 04/25/09 1:15 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
Angelsong777,
I am in full agreement with your assessment of how raising the cost of participation impacts participatory volume.
A lot of time, effort, and money went into trying to build Wagglepop as a site where just the barest minimum of cost would afford all or any eBay sellers the opportunity to participate. Outside of our loyal existing and a handful of past sellers, the response has been primarily one of two things: apathy through non-participation, or bad-faith non-payment of seller invoices.
That is the fault of ownership and management in conception – misjudging the need for a site such as Wagglepop. It was simply discussion board blather that we took too literally and seriously.
The delinquent account numbers are utterly staggering – I will spare everyone the exact numbers as they are beyond comprehension – and should Wagglepop fold I’ll be shopping the remaining delinquencies to collection agencies at the highest bid.
There is virtually no chance Wagglepop could be sold simply because I have very strong doubts anyone would offer anything beyond a token price for it. I see no marketplace for it, historically. Bidville was offered at $500,000 for months without anything resembling an offer – a site quite inferior to Wagglepop.
AP

Angelsong777
Date Posted: Sat 04/25/09 1:47 am
Posts: 2026
Member Since: 24 Jul 2006
“the response has been primarily one of two things: apathy through non-participation, or bad-faith non-payment of seller invoices”
Andrew, I see now that a lot of that ‘apathy’ could have been overcome with a ‘no up front cost’ option, where the site still brings in as much if not MORE in FVFs. This became crystal clear in observing the development of sites like Bonanzle and Atomic Mall over the last several months. Bonanzle is still a new site, but already has 1,729,362 listings and almost fifty thousand members. Wagglepop is a FAR FAR FAR superior site to Bonanzle. Much more potentially effective for generating sales. Wagglepop should have been the site to get on the map the way Bonanzle has now. Perhaps it isn’t too late, but it would require a huge shift in strategy, beginning with the fee structure.
_________________
~Alison
*Normal* is just a setting on the dryer.

Angelsong777
Date Posted: Sat 04/25/09 2:22 am
Posts: 2026
Member Since: 24 Jul 2006
“There is virtually no chance Wagglepop could be sold simply because I have very strong doubts anyone would offer anything beyond a token price for it.”
Andrew, might you be able to provide some numbers such as:
A) What might be an acceptable price for the site?
B) What might be the cost to enter into a partnership?
Thank you.
_________________
~Alison
*Normal* is just a setting on the dryer.

Tam2Win1
Date Posted: Sat 04/25/09 2:37 am
Posts: 2501
Member Since: 03 Aug 2006
“There are indeed many, many small “mom and pop” type auction sites that may work for sellers, but Wagglepop is and always has been something different, and special.”
I think this statement in itself is the key to why Wagglepop is where it is today. Wagglepop IS a small “mom & pop” type auction site. However it has always been trying to operate like Macy’s with a Macy’s budget. Let’s be realistic. WP will never be Macy’s or Ebay… we knew that over a year ago already. It would be best to just pull back and start operating like a small “mom & pop” store with a “mom & pop” budget so that WP can continue to exist.
If we don’t turn off some of those bells & whistles now while we can, they will only be making noise as everyone makes their exits.
Yes, Wagglepop is different and special. But it cannot continue to be that way if there are no longer sellers to make it that way. And charging $60 per seller is definately not going to keep people glued to Wagglepop. Nor is it going to attract ANY new sellers who happen to pass by.
Yes, stripping WP down would be a sad thing, but if it is necessary to stay open, then wouldn’t that be better than to give up knowing that we didn’t try?
_________________
Tamera
Bernings Bargains Sale: April 12-25, 2009
30% off all items in the Home & Garden department.
Red Carpet Discount: Buy any 3 items and start getting 15% off every item in the store,
every time you shop at Rubber Ducky Deals on Wagglepop!

Remotes4Less
Date Posted: Sat 04/25/09 3:46 am
Posts: 1843
Member Since: 22 Jul 2006
Thank you for your response to my offer Andrew.
I do understand, based on your explanation why customer care has to remain an internal function. My offer stands, now, or in the future…if my help in that direction would be of assistance to offset even a small portion of that expense.
Now…..I have two additional questions……..:)
If I was to put together some alternative fee structures to meet monthly operating expenses, would you be willing to give them serious consideration?
Secondly, did the introduction of Wagglepop Marketshare with Amazon successfully generate any revenue and if so, would you be willing to share the numbers? I didn’t see it included in your original post of operating revenues. If memory serves me correctly, it has been in place for three full months now.
Also I am interested in seeing your response to Alison’s last post.
Remotes4Less
_________________
Remotes4Less

bobjohnston
Date Posted: Sat 04/25/09 3:58 am
Posts: 94
Member Since: 12 Dec 2007
“Also I am interested in seeing your response to Alison’s last post.”
I belive a lot of s would be inrested in that one.
I’m still intrested in coming back Andrew Please contact me at:
robertdjohnston@msn.com
Thanks
_________________
Courage is rarely reckless or foolish . . . courage usually involves a highly realistic estimate of the odds that must be faced. -Margaret Truman.
Bob Johnston

wagglepopCC2
Date Posted: Sat 04/25/09 4:55 am
Posts: 379
Member Since: 20 Jan 2007
Angelsong777,
I am not sure posting a blanket “for sale” announcement or setting a public asking price is a prudent course of action at this specific time.
I would expect that if anyone was seriously funded and interested (and knowing how quickly news and/or rumors spread within the online auction world), they would contact us for a meeting about the particulars (i.e. interested in the programming, the servers, the contracts, the domain name, assumption of debt or receivables, trademarks, LLC transfer, licenses, etc.) and we could fax non-disclosure agreements to begin those discussions.
I think in the past 18 months or so we have had 25-30 casual email inquiries – typically with absolutely laughably low offers for various parts or all of Wagglepop.
In any case, regarding that or a partnership agreement I just cannot myself envision where such a partner might exist or have the resources required.
The entire idea of selling the business or parts of the business may be something I need to review with ownership. My understanding (perhaps incorrect) is that ownership would handle closure, sale, and/or tax implications post-closure, should such action be necessary. I will try to get clarification on that for my own edification.
I would be curious to know how membership would value Wagglepop in dollars per item as noted above. There are some old business standby formulas that give me a rough idea personally (and I do not know if ownership would value it similarly) , but I’d be interested to see some membership input.
Tam2Win1,
I wish what you propose was possible, but the programming for Wagglepop is so intricate, the systems so complex, and the requirements in terms of server needs so profound there simply is no way to run it in a shared cgi-bin type environment. We built Wagglepop the way we thought the potential community deserved – to the best of our abilities and at a very high standard.
Remotes4Less,
If you have an alternate plan to generate the revenues we need to operate in May, please contact us in Customer Care and ask Chris to forward your email. I am open to the notion that I could be flat out missing something.
Total revenues generated under Marketshare using Amazon for Q1 2009 were $47.61.
bobjohnston,
We would certainly welcome you back at anytime. Please contact Chris in Customer Care and I am sure she can set you on the course to restoration.
AP

cuteandfun
Date Posted: Sat 04/25/09 7:38 am
Posts: 616
Member Since: 04 Feb 2008
I have not said anything this far because I don’t feel I can really add anything to what has been said. Plus I have been trying to take it all in and fight back the tears. The fee change will not really hurt me since that is what I have been paying, however I have not been making enough to pay my fees.
With GM closing plants my work is talking about another big layoff since GM is our main customer. So that makes this even harder on me.
I am trying to figure out how I can help Wagglepop make it without hurting my daughter and myself. I have several suppliers available to me and I could open a number of stores to help increase the number of stores if it is not going to cost me anymore. It would be a lot of work and my daughter can help me. But I don’t know how long I can last if I my work lays me off or I don’t make more sales to cover my fees.
I am hoping and praying for Wagglepop and my fellow Wagglepop sellers. Sorry I can’t be of more help but this is way over my head.
_________________
Thanks,
Denise
Tagged with:
 
If you enjoyed this article, please consider sharing it!
Facebook Twitter Digg

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Connect with Facebook

*

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> <pre lang="" line="" escaped="" highlight="">